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TODAY’S DATE: 27.04.2011
Sadly yet another case of V.K.H Like Syndrome (Uveodermatological Syndrome) has been reported this time in a 10 month old chow chow girl called
MARSHILL’S FANTASY DAWN (KC REG: AL02632505)
to which the breeder(s) allegedly are only responding with threats.
Mother: MARSHILL BLUE ROSE
Father: LECHAN ICED TEE (CLICK HERE)
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28.11.2011. As of today’s date there has been
NO RESPONSE WHATSOEVER FROM THE BREED COUNCIL REGARDING THIS MOST SERIOUS OF CONDITIONS.
06/05/2011 FOR NOW WE MUST GIVE THE BREED COUNCIL THE COURTESY OF TIME
to investigate fully BEFORE anything else is published.
It must also be noted that Lechan Iced Tee was eye tested by Professor Bedford
“FOR ENTROPION ONLY” and most definitely not V.K.H. Like Syndrome.
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YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF DOING WHAT OWNERS ARE ASKED TO DO IN REPORTING THIS TO THE BREEDER, YET NOTHING IS BEING DONE AND LETTERS GO UNANSWERED.
SO WHAT IS THE POINT?
Anonymous and unsigned email received here tonight 28.03.2011 at 20.14 hrs.
700jez@yahoo.co.uk
Dear sirs, please remember that the owner of the stud dog will claim it’s nothing to do with them, when we all know these diseases need genes from “both” parents in order to appear in a puppy. This includes a huge amount of genetic diseases too and not just v.k.h. If the breeders/owners of BOTH parents do NOT pull these dogs from any further breeding then the likelihood is that v.k.h in this instance will not be stemmed at all. I know already of other pups that have been sold into other breeding lines using one or both of the parents. It’s a minefield out there it really is and what is the point in owners reporting to breeders when they in turn take no notice or even verify the facts, proven facts. with this case it is now scientifically proven that both parents carry at least half the amount of genes needed for
v.k.h to manifest within a puppy of theirs. both parents “and offspring” on similar breeding lines must be pulled from further breeding in order to at least be seen to try to eliminate this crippling disease full stop. to me BOTH parties are at fault here and non recognition of these letters is a crime. both parties profited financially from the making of that litter. one on stud fee’s and the other on puppy sales. The whole breeding lines of this poorly puppy MUST be scrutinised and investigated otherwise the chow chow will be doomed. it’s already on the list of 15 high profile breeds with the kennel club. with folk like this too, whom i note are accredited breeders with the kennel club need a reality check and the kennel club needs to investigate this particular case thoroughly. please tell the owners of this lovely puppy that as they are in fact accredited breeders, then the kennel club is now, by their own rules and regulations, duty bound to investigate further. and by the way what the hell were they thinking in putting 2 dilute coloured chow chows together in the first place? regards.
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Response from owner:
Hi Rob.
Many thanks for this reply, if it is at all possible please print it, even if you say you have received it and passed it on to me, and i fully agree with it and would like it published on my behalf, because now i feel we are getting somewhere nearer to making people aware of this horrible disease, and to the author i send my thanks and understand why the anonymity, it is highly likely they show dogs themselves, and sadly cant come out in the open about it. Once again whoever you are thank you for your concern and interest.
Regards
Dave
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3rd Anonymous and unsigned email received here tonight 28.03.2011 at 23.31 hrs.
7389jez@yahoo.co.uk
Hello Mr Gingell and sadly yes you are right because of my own involvement within the chow chow breed I need to remain anonymous. I hope you understand.
I do know a lot about breeding though not only with chows but with other breeds I have here and have owned in the past.
I do not breed anymore though, as I say it’s become a minefield out there and the internet has opened up all kinds of issues regarding the breeding of pedigree dogs in particular. Breeders simply cannot claim any illness to be a one off like before. The information is already at anyone’s fingertips through the internet. All it takes is a little time and research and bingo - there you have it.
I like Rob’s site because he is the only one that will publicise these conditions for the general public (not just breeders) to view at their leisure and make their own derision’s from. You have probably noticed that most breeding kennels here in the UK do NOT have a health menu on their sites and only deal with their show wins. I say bravo to Rob. He has helped a LOT of owners and I hope he continues to do so.
Regards.
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email received here Friday, April 01, 2011 10:21 AM
Arpi12345@aol.com
ive read this with interest what a shame the puppy looks poorly but if that's not bad enough no contact from the people who bred this pup, that is bad business in anyone's eyes the breeders should be named to warn others to stay clear because if things go wrong they don't care
Wendy Taylor
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Hi Rob.
This is an update on Mai, sadly it looks like she is on the downward slope, when i read Phoebe's story it filled me with hope.
Another thing i have had brought to my attention is that because i am not a member of any Chow club Mai's plight cannot be discussed at any meetings. There was never anything mentioned about this when i purchased the puppy, so obviously i was totally unaware of this fact, in saying that they can only act as negotiators and cannot force any member to act when they feel the situation requires addressing, IE in my case my money back. This, now it has been brought to my attention, i fully understand and respect there rules.
However as most puppy's are sold to the public, who without the public buyers, they would not have a business, is it not in there own interest to discuss any issue from whatever source that has the possibility of giving there club a bad reputation, in particular where health is concerned.
As my name and address is on them letters you posted i am getting a lot of enquiries regarding Mai, and the treatment we are receiving, once again, i will name none of them, nor will i ever print them, because as i used to show horses i know what these people are up against, i will destroy them rather than print them, but to all the letter writers i give my thanks.
To all the silent critics look at your rosette you won then look at my Mai's pictures and ask yourselves is that rosette worth more than this puppies life. If the answer is no then speak up because together it can be stemmed.
Rob i have pulled a couple of articles of the net that explains VKH and the symptoms, there appears to be a lot of people who a)have never heard of it, or b) have heard of it but know nothing about it, the faster the response the more chance your dog has if you pick up on the signs quick enough, and it’s not too aggressive, then you have a chance to help your puppy through this horrible disease.
Regards
Dave
name and address supplied
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IF A BREEDER CANNOT DISTINGUISH THE FACTS ON HOW A DISEASE MANIFESTS ITSELF WITHIN A PUPPY THEN THEY SHOULD NOT BE BREEDING FULL STOP AS IS ALLEGEDLY THE CASE WITH THESE TWO LONG STANDING BREEDERS.
IF A BREEDER IGNORES THE ADVICE AND TEACHINGS OF THE KENNEL CLUB GENETICIST AS SEEN ON PAGE ONE BELOW THEN THEY SHOULD NOT BE BREEDING PEDIGREE DOGS FULL STOP.
IF A BREEDER IGNORES THE ADVICE AND TEACHINGS OF THE KENNEL CLUB GENETICIST ETC. THEN THEY SHOULD NOT BE A MEMBER OF THE KENNEL CLUB ACCREDITED BREEDER SCHEME.
THESE LINES ARE NOW CONTAMINATED THROUGH PROVEN V.K.H. LIKE SYNDROME, E.P.I, & S.C.L.R.
IN TWO PUPPIES (SO FAR) AND SHOULD BE REMOVED.
NO EXCUSES!!!
Signed: R Burchell
Name, address and contact publicly known.
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Research by owners submitted below.
The Akita is a distant relative of the chow chow.
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Hi Rob,
Just been reading the updates on Mai on your website. It's very sad to hear that she's not well, and I hope that treatment begins to work for her very quickly.
Anyway...I was looking at the info from the akita forum which you've posted. I was particularly interested in the part which mentioned that "..any type of stress can trigger the disease" and "...the severity of symptoms can vary from dog to dog". Now if there's any chance that there could be a genetic component of course I agree that it would be best for both parents to be removed from breeding. This said however, VKH appears to be an auto-immune problem. This suggests to me (and of course, I'm NOT an expert!!) that there may be a type of genetic 'pre-disposition' to VKH (or another auto-immune condition), which is triggered in response to something else ('stress' - for example, a viral infection). I'll give you an example; my dad. My dad has alopecia, probably caused by his own over-active immune system (i.e., an auto-immune condition, which, from the description of the biopsies taken of Mai, that sounds like what VKH is). Now, as it happens, my grandmother (my dads mum) had a completely unrelated auto-immune condition - MS. Is it possible that my dad was 'pre-disposed' to get an auto-immune condition? Possibly. Was my dad definitely going to get MS? Definitely not. What about my dad's sister? She may also have this 'pre-disposition' to an auto-immune condition, but, as yet she hasn't developed one and may never do. Conversely, it is possible that my dad is not genetically 'pre-disposed' to an auto-immune condition, and has simply developed one completely 'independently' (i.e. with no genetic involvement at all).
What I'm saying is, is that ALL of Mai's ancestors may be 100% genetically 'normal' and that she has unfortunately developed this terrible condition. It is also possible that one (or both) parents may have passed on a pre-disposition to an auto-immune condition. EVEN IF THIS IS THE CASE it does not necessarily mean that 1) any of their present or future progeny will develop VKH; 2) any of their present or future progeny will develop any other auto-immune condition; 3) either parent will develop an auto-immune condition.
In human VKH, it is also known that, although the disease is more common in those with certain genes, IT IS NOT ONLY found in those with these genes.
I'm just saying that I think it would be worth examining the lives and health histories of those dogs with VKH (such as Mai) so see how much of a factor this has played, particularly if the dog's pedigree appears sound and no other related dogs have developed similar symptoms (I do know though that 'there's a first time for everything' and that there's always the first to be diagnosed; I also realise that many breeders will 'keep quiet' about such things). I just wanted to add my two-pennies worth; I wouldn't like to think that anyone thought that, in this instance, both Lechan Iced Tee and Marshill Blue Rose definitely both had a 'recessive' gene that led to Mai developing VKH, as this may not be the case at all.
Like I say, just wanted to add my bit.
name and address supplied
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W I T H O U T P R E J U D I C E
The operative word here is MAY occur.
Now this has been diagnosed PROPERLY and SCIENTIFICALLY, IF Mai’s parents go on and mate again, then there is NOW documented evidence that should it occur again in either one of their puppies, EVEN WITH DIFFERENT MATES, then the breeders are well open to prosecution through negligence. This WILL relay hefty fines upon them.
This is NOT a threat, this is now documented FACT. Just as it is now with Genesis.
They have been given the information on Mai, a PROVEN and MEDICAL diagnosis without stress OR viral infections playing any part of her condition (though the following was added by anon above: “You have to remember that our immune systems are fighting stuff off all the time and we're not ill, but our immune systems are working”). True and succinct. Mai may well have been fighting an unknown infection yet the vet could not find any evidence of this in his diagnosis.
Leeway must be given to both sides here.
It is plainly obvious that in this instance V.K.H. Like Syndrome has been passed from BOTH parents. BOTH parents possibly being the catalyst for this disease in this particular puppy.
We ALL know,(OR RATHER SHOULD KNOW”) that V.K.H. Like Syndrome NEEDS genes from the mother as well as the father to become a complete string in a chromosome within a puppy.
WITHOUT the availability of testing, we cannot ascertain which ancestors are in fact carriers also. For example, one line in the fathers pedigree may be clear whilst the other is a carrier. Same applies to the mother.
SO...... without testing all that can be done to stem this terrible and now avoidable disease is to remove all offending lines no questions asked.
Remember I have produced a puppy with V.K.H & E.P.I. BOTH parents were immediately removed from all breeding cycles here. The grief it caused both owners was enough to warrant such actions.
The chow breeding fraternity labeled Phoebes V.K.H. Like Syndrome as rubbish and that it did not affect the chow chow.
I PERSONALLY know of 11 chows that are affected, but owners are loathed to come forward. That is their business not mine. However with those that DO come forward the chow breeding fraternity MUST look into this more carefully and tread warily when planning a mating with any of Mai’s siblings or her PARENTS and their ancestors.
If they do not take the information seriously enough, then as I say, if they produce a puppy, just one, with V.K.H. Like Syndrome then they are open to prosecution also.
With regard to points 1, 2 and 3 you raised, breeders will stem their hopes on nothing being passed down the lines, BUT can they in all honesty and credibility attest to the fact that it is “worth the risk”?
Not without genetic testing they can’t and neither can they hide behind this statement too.
Ignorance is NO EXCUSE in the eyes of the laws of the United Kingdom. And as there is NO genetic testing available to determine who is affected, who is a carrier and who is clear..........
Would YOU take the risk? It is a dilemma only the MOST STUPID will attempt to correct and I guarantee,
with little success. The chance is too great.
Genetic manipulation is NOT for dog breeders who will not even recognise or more importantly UNDERSTAND scientific proof when presented. Those who rubbish these proven reports deserve all they get. Trial and error is a thing of the past.
Breeders have been getting away with the excuse of “this is a one off” for long enough and quite frankly I am fed up of the excuses given, the lack of reporting to the breed council and KC openly and more importantly HONESTLY. These days all it takes is the click of a button and the information is right there in everyone’s front room. They don’t need this site to research, all they need is a home computer. Something the Dog Breeding fraternities fail to understand these days - still.
I therefore stand by my comments earlier, that both parents SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM ANY AND ALL BREEDING LINES ALONG WITH SIBLINGS OF MAI. NO EXCUSES.
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W I T H O U T P R E J U D I C E
http://chowwebsite.free.fr/lechanchows.com/letter.pdf
THIS LINK ABOVE AND TRANSCRIPT BELOW IS AN OPEN PUBLISHED LETTER
ON THE LECHAN WEB SITE.
IT STATES THE FOLLOWING.
Lechan Chow Chows (est.1976)
Ashcroft
Mount Pleasant
Ripley, Derbyshire.
0044 (0) 1773 744634 DE5 3DX www.lechanchows.com
UK
31-03-2011
Mrs S Gingell
3 Warren Close
Atherton
Manchester
M46 9RY
Dear Mrs Gingell
Re: Marshill Fantasy Dawn
I have addressed this letter to you because it is your name on the correspondence received. However it appears to be Mr Gingell who has been telephoning various people and generally making a nuisance of himself over this matter.
When a letter is sent marked as a “copy” referring to a dispute between another party it is not usual to send a reply.
Your second letter has been collected from the sorting office today but really had I any need to do this as it was plastered on an Internet site for the entire world to see.
This is a personal attack on my husband and myself so we feel duty to bound to state the following facts:
- This matter is between you and Mrs Hill. You purchased the puppy and paid the money to Mrs Hill, not us. This could I am sure have been settled amicably if you had spoken to Mrs Hill about your problems. She would then have made contact to make us aware of the situation. Puppies are bred in good faith and with any livestock things can happen. Genetics are very complex and no one sets out to breed unhealthy stock.
- You have obviously visited our web site as you quote pieces from this but have put your own spin on this, which I find repugnant.
- The disease you are talking about which you say your bitch has been diagnosed with has been around on various web sites and a lot has been included on your friend’s site, Mr Burchall. He is not an expert in Chows nor is he a Vet. The Jury is out whether this is hereditary or not. As with any subject you can find information for or against on the Internet.
- There is no known test for this illness.
- Lechan Iced Tee has had the following health tests: HD scored, Elbow Dysplasia Scheme, DNA Profiled & Eye tested through the BVA/KC Eye scheme by Dr Bedford. These are all the health tests available to the Breed and none are compulsory. I do not believe you will find another stud dog in the UK, which has completed all these checks. So be sure of your facts before you start attacking!
- We have always been proactive with health matters and I refute the allegations you have made.
Now to finish this matter once and for all:
- Instruct Mr Burchall to take the letters off his web site immediately, you must have given him permission to use them. They are slanderous, vindictive and libellous.
- Do not send any further correspondence to us or contact us in any way.
If the above is not complied with we will be seeking advice from our Solicitors and maybe the Police.
Yours
Pam & Stef Godber
Copies To: Mrs Hill
Mrs Merrion (Breed Council)
Mr B Lambert (Kennel Club)
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W I T H O U T P R E J U D I C E
First and foremost, this is an open letter published on the Lechan Chows web site and can therefore be responded to accordingly. No one has sent this, it is published freely and deserves an answer.
FACT: MR GINGELL IS AN EXTREMELY NICE FELLOW AND NOT LOOKING FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN ADVICE FROM ANY AND ALL BREEDERS OF CHOWS.
FACT: Mr Gingell did everything that was expected of him AS AN OWNER OF AN AFFECTED CHOW; by informing BOTH owners of each parent that a puppy they produced “together” was in fact suffering with a debilitating and genetic disease.
FACT: this is an illness that concerns both breeders and not just the one who sold the puppy.
FACT: Mr Gingell has received nothing but abuse in his efforts.
FACT: Mr Gingell was not looking for any form of compensation from either party as is stated in his opening letter other that what rightfully should have been refunded to him: “WE ARE ALL VICTIMS HERE”
FACT: MR. GINGELL HAS NOT MADE A NUISANCE OF HIMSELF IN CALLING OTHER BREEDERS FOR ADVICE ON THIS DISEASE. IN FACT THAT IS ENCOURAGED WITHIN ALL BREEDING OF PEDIGREE DOGS. IF ONE CANNOT HELP THEN TRY ANOTHER.
FACT: Whether it is usual or unusual to send a letter to the Godpers is irrelevant here. Mr Gingell was informing the owners of BOTH parents AS IS STIPULATED WITHIN ALL BREEDING OF PEDIGREE DOGS. End of discussion.
FACT: Had Mr Gingell received the correct and proper response to his reports then there would be NO NEED to publish anything anywhere, the breed council would have been informed, the Kennel Club would have been informed, the case recorded as it should be, and taken further with discussions within the breed as a whole.
All this HAD the breeders done what they are “supposed to do”.
FACT: Mr Gingell’s open letters were NOT a personal attack against anyone. Granted frustration may play a part in them, but after receiving no help or advice other than abuse from the breeder, then this was the natural next step. Abuse that was totally uncalled for.
FACT: MR GINGELL AND MR BURCHELL ARE NOT FRIENDS.
FACT: MR BURCHELL HAS NEVER CLAIMED HE IS A VET
FACT: WITH THIS CASE? WHAT GIVES THE GODPERS ANY RIGHT IN CLAIMING MR BURCHELL IS NOT AN EXPERT ON THE CHOW? HE CERTAINLY KNOWS MORE THAN MOST, MORE THAN THE GODPERS KNOW, ON GENETIC ILLNESSES
AS IS PAINFULLY OBVIOUS HERE.
FACT: AS TO ANY EXPERTISE ON THE CHOW CHOW AS A BREED OF PEDIGREE DOG, AGAIN IT IS PAINFULLY OBVIOUS THAT MR BURCHELL KNOWS MORE THAN THE LETTER WRITERS IN THIS INSTANCE.
FACT: MR GINGELL CONTACTED MR BURCHELL BECAUSE HE HAS FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF V.K.H. LIKE SYNDROME IN A CHOW BORN WITH HIM, THAT THE WHOLE CHOW BREEDING FRATERNITY RUBBISHED AS UNTRUE WHEN REPORTED.
FACT: MR GINGELL WAS LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WITH A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IN ORDER THAT HE COULD AID HIS CHOW BETTER. MAI’S “BREEDERS” OFFERING NO HELP WHATSOEVER.
SOMEONE WHO HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THE DISEASE AND SOMEONE THAT WOULD NOT RUBBISH A PRECISE VETERINARY REPORT.
FACT: AS TO THE JURY BEING OUT ON WHETHER OR NOT IT IS HEREDITARY, THEN THIS IS CONTRARY TO
THE KENNEL CLUB’S OWN GENETICIST.
IF BREEDERS WILL NOT HEED HIS TEACHINGS AND ADVICE, THEN THE BREED WILL GET NO WHERE.
THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A TOTALLY UNEDUCATED STATEMENT TO MAKE FROM ONE WHO
IS SUPPOSEDLY HELD IN HIGH REGARD WITHIN BREEDING CIRCLES.
FACT: THERE IS A RECOGNISED TEST AVAILABLE TO DETERMINE SUFFERERS
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PROOF POSITIVE THE BREEDER MRS HILL OF MARSHILL CHOWS WAS INFORMED THE DAY THE RESULTS CAME.
SHE FAILED TO NOTIFY THE OWNER OF THE STUD DOG!
THERE WAS NO OTHER REASON FOR THE CALL.
I THINK ONE BREEDER, IF NOT BOTH OF THEM IN THIS SAGA OWES MR. GINGELL A COMPLETE APOLOGY
THIS KIND OF ATTITUDE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN THE 21st CENTURY.
THE INVENTION OF THE INTERNET HAS PUT THAT GHOST TO REST ONCE AND FOR ALL
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